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Thread started 09/14/19 12:57pm

2freaky4church
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Free Speech does not exist and it should not??

The question nobody ever asks, which is odd at this crazy fit of moments: Is there actual free speech? I'm starting to think not. This is based on a great new book by academic PE Moskowitz. Stanley Fish is another author who has said it is a good thing there is no free speech. The point is ironic not principled. Sure there is free speech in principle but does anybody believe it or practice it? Maybe me or a few others. The reason the right wing talks about free speech is because they want their speech to dominate the conversation, end of story. Does anybody sane think Ben Shapiro cares about Chomsky's speech? Certainly the Boston Globe does not when they said they would never review one of his books! People like the speech they like and avoid the speech they do not. How many right wingers read the Nation? Do liberals read National Review? I do but I'm an outlier. I'd attest that the left is more apt to read the other side since we tend to trust free speech more than the right. History is on our side. Remember the Berkely Free Speech movment? That was on the left--the far far left actually. The students sat on a police car until police broke it up and arrested them. Guess who was critical of them? Ronald Reagan..You look at actual censorship and you always see the right wing. Our second President John Adams did the Alien and Sedition act. It made it illegal to criticize the President? One guy was charged. They banned books for decades. The right didn't even want Evolution to be taught. They banned comic books, rock records, dancing. They wanted forced prayer in schools--that's some fascist shit. There was hardcore activism in the 60s. Activists then even carried guns. That is seen my sane people as a period of democratic vibrancy. It made us more decent, but you first had to break several eggs. We got many new rights because of this--civil, speech, human rights, women's freedom, the gay movement, environmental movement. Compare this to the 50s where Lucy and Ricky Ricardo could not say Pregnant, they had to say expecting--but they did smoke! You could openly call someone a fa&*ot. The N word was in the mouths of Grandmothers not just rappers. lol..The right wing got scared. They wanted to stop this coming democratic wave because they actually do hate real freedom. They talk a game. Big companies got together with activists on the right and created the think tanks we see today. They tried to infultrate colleges. The Koch Brothers funded much of this as did Scaife and the Olin Foundation. They created a little show called Firing Line, which did have on lefties. They changed the debate while the left was either crushed or fell asleep. The Reagan wave brought in the religious right-our Taliban in grey suits. They went after pornography, rock lyrics, movies, radio, tv. Talk radio was all over because they killed the Fairness Doctrine. I thought they believed in fairness? No, their new cudgel was power combined with money. In the 80s and 90s they started to complain about free speech on colleges. Why colleges? Because that is where our elites get trained, and they wanted well turned out right wing bone heads. They wanted to end woman's Studies, Black Studies etc. They started using the tired term Politically Correct, which just means something a leftist says. How does one confront the challenges of racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, without fighting it. How do you fight it when fighting it makes you a mean PC free speech hater? You learn that only white guys with big money have free speech, not the rest of us. Sure we have access to speech, but how do you know what to avoid? What to follow? Colleges have always decided who to invite and who not too. The free wheeling University was always a myth. It's rare to see an actual debate--anywhere. Sure stopping speakers is wrong but then do you stop racism? How do you do it when they have the real power, the only power you have is active resistance. Peopple like their speech because it is their speech. Free speech may be a dusty myth.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #1 posted 09/14/19 5:33pm

OldFriends4Sal
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Sticky: FREEDOM OF SPEECH IS NOT GUARANTEED

... AND IT NEVER WAS ... AT LEAST NOT ON THIS SITE!

Some people confuse the rights guaranteed to you under the protection of the constitution of these United States, with the rules of engagement here at this fuckadelica Punkedelica, spunkedelica and all too sexy unofficial Prince fansite. But that type of thinking is so far down the road, and wrong, that even Prince was rolling his eyes.

Sorry flag waving America (fuck yeah!) free thinkers, but you have no rights here! This is not your beautiful wife! This is not your beautiful car! My God, what have you done?!

Hell, even Prince was no giver of equal talking ground. Oh sure, he sang about being glad that you were free, but he was all flat notes when it came to Princeworld! His name might have been Prince, but in his court, he was King, and nobody got freedom of anything in that mofo. He’d shut your shit straight down and then dismiss and cut off your ass for talking to a person he didn’t know. Yeah ... he didn’t play ... and we don’t either.

You want freedom of speech? Well, then go to China. Just kidding ... go write a book, open a club, walk in through the out door, out door, start your own fansite ... because, here on the org? No, no, no ... baby, baby, baby ... what’s it gonna be? Oh, you done signed your rights on this site over to us! And we sold your rights to that bootlegger in Europe. He likes that kinda shit.

Do we understand each other? That’s what I thought. (Mic drop) 🎤< Whahaaa!!!

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence
I will make you cyber shit in your pants!
What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #2 posted 09/14/19 9:02pm

OnlyNDaUsa

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The crushing rant wall of text word salad that is the OP seems rather biased. Laws such as the "Fairness doctrine" are decidedly anti-free speech and anything but fair.

But my observations of your post indicate you do not support free speech. Just the other day (In the Dixie Chicks topic) you said "Support true freedom or shush." failing to grasp that FREEDOM allows people to speak out when they do not like something someone said... granted telling someone to shush is also free speech but somehow I doubt you get that.


You deafened Antia's use of violence as free speech... "The protests were free speech. You seem to be against it." https://prince.org/msg/105/438200 and even said it was only a few of them. You basicaly said "there were very fine people" there.

use of violance to quash free speech is the very conduct Noam Chomsky spoke out against in this topic https://prince.org/msg/105/459008

you have made clear you do not agree with Noam on this issue...



Yes over our history both Republicans and Democrats both liberal and conservative have tried to ban or punish some speech or expression or thought or conduct they did not like.

you can not get away suggesting it was mostly the other side.




No one is coming for your abortion: they just want common-sense abortion regulations: background checks, waiting periods, lifetime limits, take a class, and a small tax.
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Reply #3 posted 09/15/19 8:22am

PennyPurple

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The OP didn't mention this site, so I think it's just a general question.


In response to the OP: Yes we have free speech, we can say anything we want BUT along with that free speech there are repercussions.

Politically Correct is just another word for you should know better. And seriously this day and age everyone should know by now to not use ethnic slurs against any race. It's only common sense.

OldFriends4Sale said:

Sticky: FREEDOM OF SPEECH IS NOT GUARANTEED

... AND IT NEVER WAS ... AT LEAST NOT ON THIS SITE!

Some people confuse the rights guaranteed to you under the protection of the constitution of these United States, with the rules of engagement here at this fuckadelica Punkedelica, spunkedelica and all too sexy unofficial Prince fansite. But that type of thinking is so far down the road, and wrong, that even Prince was rolling his eyes.

Sorry flag waving America (fuck yeah!) free thinkers, but you have no rights here! This is not your beautiful wife! This is not your beautiful car! My God, what have you done?!

Hell, even Prince was no giver of equal talking ground. Oh sure, he sang about being glad that you were free, but he was all flat notes when it came to Princeworld! His name might have been Prince, but in his court, he was King, and nobody got freedom of anything in that mofo. He’d shut your shit straight down and then dismiss and cut off your ass for talking to a person he didn’t know. Yeah ... he didn’t play ... and we don’t either.

You want freedom of speech? Well, then go to China. Just kidding ... go write a book, open a club, walk in through the out door, out door, start your own fansite ... because, here on the org? No, no, no ... baby, baby, baby ... what’s it gonna be? Oh, you done signed your rights on this site over to us! And we sold your rights to that bootlegger in Europe. He likes that kinda shit.

Do we understand each other? That’s what I thought. (Mic drop) 🎤< Whahaaa!!!

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Reply #4 posted 09/15/19 11:25am

2freaky4church
1

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I was talking about colleges, weird.

Number of deplatformings in 2017: 35. Number of colleges: thousands. A bit less than half of speakers deplatformed are on the left. Not counting the amount of BDS people attacked. Leftists tend to get fired.

Do I even have to mention Noam Chomsky?

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #5 posted 09/15/19 11:27am

2freaky4church
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Number of New York Times op-eds supporting right: 21

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #6 posted 09/15/19 11:29am

2freaky4church
1

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Name how many radio stations play punk or alt rock? Very few.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #7 posted 09/15/19 12:44pm

OldFriends4Sal
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But it affects this site, which is why June7 made that post. Probably right before you joined, we had a big thread on it. Because people think they understand Free Speech and get upset when we don't let them say whatever they want to say to how and how.

What 2Freaky posted is of course directly about the P&R forum too.

PennyPurple said:

The OP didn't mention this site, so I think it's just a general question.


In response to the OP: Yes we have free speech, we can say anything we want BUT along with that free speech there are repercussions.

Politically Correct is just another word for you should know better. And seriously this day and age everyone should know by now to not use ethnic slurs against any race. It's only common sense.

OldFriends4Sale said:

Sticky: FREEDOM OF SPEECH IS NOT GUARANTEED

... AND IT NEVER WAS ... AT LEAST NOT ON THIS SITE!

Some people confuse the rights guaranteed to you under the protection of the constitution of these United States, with the rules of engagement here at this fuckadelica Punkedelica, spunkedelica and all too sexy unofficial Prince fansite. But that type of thinking is so far down the road, and wrong, that even Prince was rolling his eyes.

Sorry flag waving America (fuck yeah!) free thinkers, but you have no rights here! This is not your beautiful wife! This is not your beautiful car! My God, what have you done?!

Hell, even Prince was no giver of equal talking ground. Oh sure, he sang about being glad that you were free, but he was all flat notes when it came to Princeworld! His name might have been Prince, but in his court, he was King, and nobody got freedom of anything in that mofo. He’d shut your shit straight down and then dismiss and cut off your ass for talking to a person he didn’t know. Yeah ... he didn’t play ... and we don’t either.

You want freedom of speech? Well, then go to China. Just kidding ... go write a book, open a club, walk in through the out door, out door, start your own fansite ... because, here on the org? No, no, no ... baby, baby, baby ... what’s it gonna be? Oh, you done signed your rights on this site over to us! And we sold your rights to that bootlegger in Europe. He likes that kinda shit.

Do we understand each other? That’s what I thought. (Mic drop) 🎤< Whahaaa!!!

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence
I will make you cyber shit in your pants!
What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #8 posted 09/15/19 2:28pm

OnlyNDaUsa

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2freaky4church1 said:

Name how many radio stations play punk or alt rock? Very few.

how is that in any way related to free speech?

No one is coming for your abortion: they just want common-sense abortion regulations: background checks, waiting periods, lifetime limits, take a class, and a small tax.
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Reply #9 posted 09/15/19 2:39pm

OldFriends4Sal
e

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moderator

Actually I always look at PC as being 'safe' ie don't offend anyone even if it is the truth.
.
I mean 'Political' by itself is divisive, so when you or I have to be 'politically correct' were are actually being asked to 'tip toe' around subjects.

.
Truth is people say all kinds of things about ethnic groups, genders, sexual orientations etc

And a lot of people are hypocritical about it. They will cry foul if someone crosses those PC lines about their 'ethnicity' but with the same breath cross those PC lines about another group, and say it's not the same'.

PennyPurple said:

The OP didn't mention this site, so I think it's just a general question.


In response to the OP: Yes we have free speech, we can say anything we want BUT along with that free speech there are repercussions.

Politically Correct is just another word for you should know better. And seriously this day and age everyone should know by now to not use ethnic slurs against any race. It's only common sense.

OldFriends4Sale said:

Sticky: FREEDOM OF SPEECH IS NOT GUARANTEED

... AND IT NEVER WAS ... AT LEAST NOT ON THIS SITE!

Some people confuse the rights guaranteed to you under the protection of the constitution of these United States, with the rules of engagement here at this fuckadelica Punkedelica, spunkedelica and all too sexy unofficial Prince fansite. But that type of thinking is so far down the road, and wrong, that even Prince was rolling his eyes.

Sorry flag waving America (fuck yeah!) free thinkers, but you have no rights here! This is not your beautiful wife! This is not your beautiful car! My God, what have you done?!

Hell, even Prince was no giver of equal talking ground. Oh sure, he sang about being glad that you were free, but he was all flat notes when it came to Princeworld! His name might have been Prince, but in his court, he was King, and nobody got freedom of anything in that mofo. He’d shut your shit straight down and then dismiss and cut off your ass for talking to a person he didn’t know. Yeah ... he didn’t play ... and we don’t either.

You want freedom of speech? Well, then go to China. Just kidding ... go write a book, open a club, walk in through the out door, out door, start your own fansite ... because, here on the org? No, no, no ... baby, baby, baby ... what’s it gonna be? Oh, you done signed your rights on this site over to us! And we sold your rights to that bootlegger in Europe. He likes that kinda shit.

Do we understand each other? That’s what I thought. (Mic drop) 🎤< Whahaaa!!!

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence
I will make you cyber shit in your pants!
What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #10 posted 09/15/19 3:31pm

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

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OnlyNDaUsa said:

The crushing rant wall of text word salad that is the OP seems rather biased. Laws such as the "Fairness doctrine" are decidedly anti-free speech and anything but fair.

But my observations of your post indicate you do not support free speech. Just the other day (In the Dixie Chicks topic) you said "Support true freedom or shush." failing to grasp that FREEDOM allows people to speak out when they do not like something someone said... granted telling someone to shush is also free speech but somehow I doubt you get that.


You deafened Antia's use of violence as free speech... "The protests were free speech. You seem to be against it." https://prince.org/msg/105/438200 and even said it was only a few of them. You basicaly said "there were very fine people" there.

use of violance to quash free speech is the very conduct Noam Chomsky spoke out against in this topic https://prince.org/msg/105/459008

you have made clear you do not agree with Noam on this issue...



Yes over our history both Republicans and Democrats both liberal and conservative have tried to ban or punish some speech or expression or thought or conduct they did not like.

you can not get away suggesting it was mostly the other side.






Wow we agree.
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Reply #11 posted 09/16/19 1:54pm

jfenster

OldFriends4Sale said:

Sticky: FREEDOM OF SPEECH IS NOT GUARANTEED

... AND IT NEVER WAS ... AT LEAST NOT ON THIS SITE!

Some people confuse the rights guaranteed to you under the protection of the constitution of these United States, with the rules of engagement here at this fuckadelica Punkedelica, spunkedelica and all too sexy unofficial Prince fansite. But that type of thinking is so far down the road, and wrong, that even Prince was rolling his eyes.

Sorry flag waving America (fuck yeah!) free thinkers, but you have no rights here! This is not your beautiful wife! This is not your beautiful car! My God, what have you done?!

Hell, even Prince was no giver of equal talking ground. Oh sure, he sang about being glad that you were free, but he was all flat notes when it came to Princeworld! His name might have been Prince, but in his court, he was King, and nobody got freedom of anything in that mofo. He’d shut your shit straight down and then dismiss and cut off your ass for talking to a person he didn’t know. Yeah ... he didn’t play ... and we don’t either.

You want freedom of speech? Well, then go to China. Just kidding ... go write a book, open a club, walk in through the out door, out door, start your own fansite ... because, here on the org? No, no, no ... baby, baby, baby ... what’s it gonna be? Oh, you done signed your rights on this site over to us! And we sold your rights to that bootlegger in Europe. He likes that kinda shit.

Do we understand each other? That’s what I thought. (Mic drop) 🎤< Whahaaa!!!

thats because there r secret Prince camp spies strategically placed HERE

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Reply #12 posted 09/16/19 3:55pm

guitarslinger4
4

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Free speech, or at least the ability to say things without the government cracking down on you is the one thing that makes the US better than anywhere else. Even in Europe and Australia, the government will nanny the shit out of you if you say the wrong thing, censor art because they deem it "too controversial" or whathaveyou.

No, you aren't free from the consequences of your speech, but the fact that you can say what you want to say even with consequences is a lot more than most (possibly all others, but I'm not certain about that) places can say.

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Reply #13 posted 09/16/19 3:59pm

2freaky4church
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Who has free speech? The powerful and the white.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #14 posted 09/16/19 4:10pm

guitarslinger4
4

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2freaky4church1 said:

Who has free speech? The powerful and the white.


People who live in countries that defend that right have it even if they don't choose to use it. shrug

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Reply #15 posted 09/16/19 4:14pm

OnlyNDaUsa

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2freaky4church1 said:

Who has free speech? The powerful and the white.

you can not back that up

No one is coming for your abortion: they just want common-sense abortion regulations: background checks, waiting periods, lifetime limits, take a class, and a small tax.
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Reply #16 posted 09/16/19 4:15pm

2freaky4church
1

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You have the same right as Wal-Mart?

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #17 posted 09/16/19 4:20pm

OnlyNDaUsa

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2freaky4church1 said:

You have the same right as Wal-Mart?

Huh? you are not making much sense... well less than normal

No one is coming for your abortion: they just want common-sense abortion regulations: background checks, waiting periods, lifetime limits, take a class, and a small tax.
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Reply #18 posted 09/16/19 4:22pm

2freaky4church
1

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Who has more speech rights you or Wal-Mart?

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #19 posted 09/16/19 4:24pm

OnlyNDaUsa

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2freaky4church1 said:

Who has more speech rights you or Wal-Mart?

I do. I may not have the same level of success getting heard but I have more. you do too!

No one is coming for your abortion: they just want common-sense abortion regulations: background checks, waiting periods, lifetime limits, take a class, and a small tax.
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Reply #20 posted 09/16/19 5:04pm

PennyPurple

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2freaky4church1 said:

Who has free speech? The powerful and the white.

Oh c'mon don't start this white bullshit. I'm so sick of it.


Again, we all have free speech, but we do have to put up with the consequences of our free speech.

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Reply #21 posted 09/16/19 5:12pm

OnlyNDaUsa

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PennyPurple said:

2freaky4church1 said:

Who has free speech? The powerful and the white.

Oh c'mon don't start this white bullshit. I'm so sick of it.


Again, we all have free speech, but we do have to put up with the consequences of our free speech.

is that your privilege speaking?

No one is coming for your abortion: they just want common-sense abortion regulations: background checks, waiting periods, lifetime limits, take a class, and a small tax.
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Reply #22 posted 09/16/19 5:39pm

PennyPurple

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OnlyNDaUsa said:

PennyPurple said:

Oh c'mon don't start this white bullshit. I'm so sick of it.


Again, we all have free speech, but we do have to put up with the consequences of our free speech.

is that your privilege speaking?

Seriously. HaHaHaHa.



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Reply #23 posted 09/16/19 5:40pm

OnlyNDaUsa

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PennyPurple said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

is that your privilege speaking?

Seriously. HaHaHaHa.

So you deny it?

No one is coming for your abortion: they just want common-sense abortion regulations: background checks, waiting periods, lifetime limits, take a class, and a small tax.
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Reply #24 posted 09/16/19 5:48pm

PennyPurple

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OnlyNDaUsa said:

PennyPurple said:

Seriously. HaHaHaHa.

So you deny it?

Yes, I deny it. It is not my privilege speaking, it is my common sense. I'm not better then anyone else, because my skin is white, and I've never claimed to be better then anyone else.


I'm smart enough to know that I can say anything I want to say because I have freedom of speech. I also know that freedom of speech doesn't protect the consequences of my speech.

I don't judge anybody by their skin color, but it seems like a lot of people here are judging whites, by their skin color.

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Reply #25 posted 09/16/19 5:51pm

OldFriends4Sal
e

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moderator

OnlyNDaUsa said:

PennyPurple said:

Oh c'mon don't start this white bullshit. I'm so sick of it.


Again, we all have free speech, but we do have to put up with the consequences of our free speech.

is that your privilege speaking?

actually as a woman (despite a race label) would actually and throught history mean she doesn't have priviledge.

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence
I will make you cyber shit in your pants!
What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #26 posted 09/16/19 5:52pm

OldFriends4Sal
e

avatar

moderator

2freaky4church1 said:

Who has free speech? The powerful and the white.

come on man.

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence
I will make you cyber shit in your pants!
What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #27 posted 09/16/19 6:05pm

PennyPurple

avatar

OldFriends4Sale said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

is that your privilege speaking?

actually as a woman (despite a race label) would actually and throught history mean she doesn't have priviledge.

Exactly I have less rights than a man, only because I'm a woman.

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Reply #28 posted 09/16/19 6:14pm

OnlyNDaUsa

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PennyPurple said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

actually as a woman (despite a race label) would actually and throught history mean she doesn't have priviledge.

Exactly I have less rights than a man, only because I'm a woman.

but what a woman!

No one is coming for your abortion: they just want common-sense abortion regulations: background checks, waiting periods, lifetime limits, take a class, and a small tax.
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Reply #29 posted 09/16/19 6:15pm

OnlyNDaUsa

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PennyPurple said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

So you deny it?

Yes, I deny it. It is not my privilege speaking, it is my common sense. I'm not better then anyone else, because my skin is white, and I've never claimed to be better then anyone else.


I'm smart enough to know that I can say anything I want to say because I have freedom of speech. I also know that freedom of speech doesn't protect the consequences of my speech.

I don't judge anybody by their skin color, but it seems like a lot of people here are judging whites, by their skin color.

white people have an advantage. just as men do... just as people who live in a developed nation.

Edit: to correct "med" into "men" Men have an advantage and Privilege over woman, white people have an advantage and Privilege, people that live in a developed nation have an advantage and Privilege!

[Edited 9/16/19 19:26pm]

No one is coming for your abortion: they just want common-sense abortion regulations: background checks, waiting periods, lifetime limits, take a class, and a small tax.
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