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Thread started 02/08/19 12:38pm

luvsexy4all

No horns pre-1984

Why did Prince not include horns on any previous tours?

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Reply #1 posted 02/08/19 12:53pm

soladeo1

Fink's synths were Prince's "horns".

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Reply #2 posted 02/08/19 2:04pm

Rimshottbob

Apart from it being a creative choice - he was about looking for new sounds in the early 80s... Prince wasn't a megastar until 1984... horns are expensive... the bigger the band, the more people you got to pay... and his was a rock/pop band trying to conquer the charts... hauling a huge horn section along was hardly part of that MO... most likely it would've been vetoed if he had wanted it.

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Reply #3 posted 02/08/19 4:08pm

billymeade

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Part of the MPLS sound was synths in place of horns, no?
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Reply #4 posted 02/09/19 1:28am

jaawwnn

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It was his sound. He wanted, he NEEDED, to stand out. And it worked.
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Reply #5 posted 02/09/19 2:55am

databank

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luvsexy4all said:

Why did Prince not include horns on any previous tours?

He did not include them on records either. The first Prince release with a horn was The Glamorous Life in May 1984.

.

As said above, it was a creative choice to replace horns with keyboards from the very beginning, a creative choice that obvioulsy paid off by giving Prince a distinctive sound more in line with the post-punk/new wave scene than with the R&B scene... that is until everyone started to do it, too, and that's exactly when Prince began to include horns in his music..

.

Interestingly, when you hear pre-Prince Mpls Sound, such as on the Purple Snow compilation and other similar surviving recordings, it appears that horns weren't really prevalent in the 70's Mpls R&B scene. While not unheard of, R&B bands/artists that didn't use horns were relatively rare in the 70's. If what i've heard really reflects the 70's Mpls scene, I wonder why it wasn't into horns and how this may have influenced Prince's intution that replacing horns with synths would give him an edge.

.

Another factor probably is that Prince didn't play them. With the exception of Charles Veal's strings on For You, Prince did not include any instrument he didn't play himself on any recording until late 1983.

[Edited 2/9/19 3:03am]

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Reply #6 posted 02/09/19 3:46pm

PeteSilas

luvsexy4all said:

Why did Prince not include horns on any previous tours?

as others will and have mentioned, the synths were alot easier and more convenient to use as a horn section, especially in the era where he complained that he couldn't get people to work like he wanted them to. However,Chick Huntsbery was quoted as saying Prince hated horns, that was either a fabrication or changed by the time of the post PR work.

Prince.org: With fans like these he didn't need haters.
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Reply #7 posted 02/09/19 3:50pm

poppys

Agree with rimshot, horns are expensive in a band. Agree with data, Prince was naturally edgy and creative.

In Louisiana where both of his parents and grandparents were from, Cajun and Zydeco are fiddle and accordion centric. New Orleans is all about drums and horns. I hear it all in Prince's music. The way he stacks his horn parts layer on layer making a tumultuous whole. The way he lays back off an instrument, or his voice, and lets the spaces form their own structure, more like a wind instrument or strings. Some of his word pronounciations too, the way he says cold. Uncanny, makes me feel like music really is a conversation that travels around the world. He tapped into everything.

life, it ain't real funky unless it's got that pop.
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Reply #8 posted 02/10/19 1:04am

milesb

luvsexy4all said:

Why did Prince not include horns on any previous tours?

[Edited 2/10/19 1:05am]

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Reply #9 posted 02/10/19 4:28am

KoolEaze

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databank said:

luvsexy4all said:

Why did Prince not include horns on any previous tours?

He did not include them on records either. The first Prince release with a horn was The Glamorous Life in May 1984.

.

As said above, it was a creative choice to replace horns with keyboards from the very beginning, a creative choice that obvioulsy paid off by giving Prince a distinctive sound more in line with the post-punk/new wave scene than with the R&B scene... that is until everyone started to do it, too, and that's exactly when Prince began to include horns in his music..

.

Interestingly, when you hear pre-Prince Mpls Sound, such as on the Purple Snow compilation and other similar surviving recordings, it appears that horns weren't really prevalent in the 70's Mpls R&B scene. While not unheard of, R&B bands/artists that didn't use horns were relatively rare in the 70's. If what i've heard really reflects the 70's Mpls scene, I wonder why it wasn't into horns and how this may have influened Prince's intution that replacing horns with synths would give him an edge.

.

Another factor probably is that Prince didn't play them. With the exception of Charles Veal's strings on For You, Prince did not include any instrument he didn't play himself on any recording until late 1983.

[Edited 2/9/19 3:03am]

I thought the first Prince release was the I Would Die 4 U maxi single. Or did that come out later in 1984? I looked it up but it only showed the year, not month.

" I´d rather be a stank ass hoe because I´m not stupid. Oh my goodness! I got more drugs! I´m always funny dude...I´m hilarious! Are we gonna smoke?"




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Reply #10 posted 02/10/19 6:19am

imprimis

Prince didn't play brass/woods instruments of any kind.

.

His early touring bands operated within the confines of a narrowly tailored role that mostly reflected his studio output, and, accordingly, there is no saxophonist among them.

.

Substituting synths for live horns fit neatly into the textures of the R&B-New Wave meshwork he was laying out, and 'computer themes' he was exploring, which were fashionable in general throughout the early 1980s.

.

While pursuing wide-audience commercial success, he may have revulsed at what might be described as belonging to an earlier era of soul music (he didn't want to be EWF).

.

He was accused of being 'disco' and may have wanted to leave one of the visible trappings of that era out of his arsenal, during this pre-superstardom period.

.

He could afford to take greater risks and expand his entourage (and repertoire) after 1983, and also to pay more faithful homage to the heroes of his own youth.

.

[Edited 2/10/19 7:03am]

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Reply #11 posted 02/10/19 6:27am

poppys

Right, he didn't play horns, it's very hard to play a horn and sing, although some do. Especially while you are also playing a guitar, lol. But he sure could write horn parts.

Dude could write anything, he had it all in his head. prince

life, it ain't real funky unless it's got that pop.
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Reply #12 posted 02/10/19 8:06am

violetcrush

It seems by 1984 he was expanding his sound, and decided he wanted the "real" horns playing instead of mimicking the sound with the keyboard functions. Same with other instruments like the Cello. Someone mentioned Glamorous Life on an earier post - he brought David Coleman in to the studio, and David came up with the opening notes to that song on Cello. Very cool!! Then, he brought Eric Leeds on board as a permanent Sax player, and Eric brought in Matt Bliston in for Trumpet. He was expanding his palette of real instruments playing on songs and also on stage with him.

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Reply #13 posted 02/11/19 2:06am

databank

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KoolEaze said:



databank said:




luvsexy4all said:


Why did Prince not include horns on any previous tours?



He did not include them on records either. The first Prince release with a horn was The Glamorous Life in May 1984.


.


As said above, it was a creative choice to replace horns with keyboards from the very beginning, a creative choice that obvioulsy paid off by giving Prince a distinctive sound more in line with the post-punk/new wave scene than with the R&B scene... that is until everyone started to do it, too, and that's exactly when Prince began to include horns in his music..


.


Interestingly, when you hear pre-Prince Mpls Sound, such as on the Purple Snow compilation and other similar surviving recordings, it appears that horns weren't really prevalent in the 70's Mpls R&B scene. While not unheard of, R&B bands/artists that didn't use horns were relatively rare in the 70's. If what i've heard really reflects the 70's Mpls scene, I wonder why it wasn't into horns and how this may have influened Prince's intution that replacing horns with synths would give him an edge.


.


Another factor probably is that Prince didn't play them. With the exception of Charles Veal's strings on For You, Prince did not include any instrument he didn't play himself on any recording until late 1983.


[Edited 2/9/19 3:03am]



I thought the first Prince release was the I Would Die 4 U maxi single. Or did that come out later in 1984? I looked it up but it only showed the year, not month.



It came later. Dates can be found on both my site and Princevault.
A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...iscog/home
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Reply #14 posted 02/11/19 3:20am

milesb

KoolEaze said:

databank said:

He did not include them on records either. The first Prince release with a horn was The Glamorous Life in May 1984.

.

As said above, it was a creative choice to replace horns with keyboards from the very beginning, a creative choice that obvioulsy paid off by giving Prince a distinctive sound more in line with the post-punk/new wave scene than with the R&B scene... that is until everyone started to do it, too, and that's exactly when Prince began to include horns in his music..

.

Interestingly, when you hear pre-Prince Mpls Sound, such as on the Purple Snow compilation and other similar surviving recordings, it appears that horns weren't really prevalent in the 70's Mpls R&B scene. While not unheard of, R&B bands/artists that didn't use horns were relatively rare in the 70's. If what i've heard really reflects the 70's Mpls scene, I wonder why it wasn't into horns and how this may have influened Prince's intution that replacing horns with synths would give him an edge.

.

Another factor probably is that Prince didn't play them. With the exception of Charles Veal's strings on For You, Prince did not include any instrument he didn't play himself on any recording until late 1983.

[Edited 2/9/19 3:03am]

I thought the first Prince release was the I Would Die 4 U maxi single. Or did that come out later in 1984? I looked it up but it only showed the year, not month.

There's a horn on I Feel For You, I think. Possibly even played by Prince... 1979

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Reply #15 posted 02/11/19 4:31am

BlueShakooo

"Don't need no cymbals, no saxophone
Just need to find me a style of my own."
From "Purple Music"

"Don't get too serious, it's just a dream."
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Reply #16 posted 02/11/19 5:06am

databank

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milesb said:



KoolEaze said:




databank said:



He did not include them on records either. The first Prince release with a horn was The Glamorous Life in May 1984.


.


As said above, it was a creative choice to replace horns with keyboards from the very beginning, a creative choice that obvioulsy paid off by giving Prince a distinctive sound more in line with the post-punk/new wave scene than with the R&B scene... that is until everyone started to do it, too, and that's exactly when Prince began to include horns in his music..


.


Interestingly, when you hear pre-Prince Mpls Sound, such as on the Purple Snow compilation and other similar surviving recordings, it appears that horns weren't really prevalent in the 70's Mpls R&B scene. While not unheard of, R&B bands/artists that didn't use horns were relatively rare in the 70's. If what i've heard really reflects the 70's Mpls scene, I wonder why it wasn't into horns and how this may have influened Prince's intution that replacing horns with synths would give him an edge.


.


Another factor probably is that Prince didn't play them. With the exception of Charles Veal's strings on For You, Prince did not include any instrument he didn't play himself on any recording until late 1983.


[Edited 2/9/19 3:03am]



I thought the first Prince release was the I Would Die 4 U maxi single. Or did that come out later in 1984? I looked it up but it only showed the year, not month.





There's a horn on I Feel For You, I think. Possibly even played by Prince... 1979


Really? eek
When in the song do you hear a horn?
A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...iscog/home
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Reply #17 posted 02/11/19 11:08am

PeteSilas

databank said:

milesb said:

There's a horn on I Feel For You, I think. Possibly even played by Prince... 1979

Really? eek When in the song do you hear a horn?

hell no, that was a synth, prince couldn't play no horns and he didn't play no meat pipe so no wind instruments whatsoever.

Prince.org: With fans like these he didn't need haters.
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Reply #18 posted 02/11/19 11:17am

imprimis

He does appear to play brass on the outtake 'G-Spot', although it is an out-of-place and strained attempt, and during the beginning of his openness to expanding elements of his sound at some point in 1983.

.

[Edited 2/11/19 11:18am]

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Reply #19 posted 02/11/19 1:00pm

KoolEaze

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PeteSilas said:

databank said:

milesb said: Really? eek When in the song do you hear a horn?

hell no, that was a synth, prince couldn't play no horns and he didn't play no meat pipe so no wind instruments whatsoever.

It´s been well established that Prince could indeed play saxophone, just not well enough to really say he could play the sax. It´s been mentioned by both Eric Leeds and Candy Dulfer that they´ve heard examples of his saxophone playing.

A saxophone was also mentioned in that very first Prince interview that he gave his highschool newspaper. It didn´t explicitly say that he could play it but it mentioned a saxophone present during the interview, among other instruments.

Now I´m not saying that he played saxophone on any of the above mentioned songs but I´m just saying that we can´t be too sure that he did not play saxophone.

" I´d rather be a stank ass hoe because I´m not stupid. Oh my goodness! I got more drugs! I´m always funny dude...I´m hilarious! Are we gonna smoke?"




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Reply #20 posted 02/11/19 3:44pm

poppys

KoolEaze said:

PeteSilas said:

hell no, that was a synth, prince couldn't play no horns and he didn't play no meat pipe so no wind instruments whatsoever.


It´s been well established that Prince could indeed play saxophone, just not well enough to really say he could play the sax. It´s been mentioned by both Eric Leeds and Candy Dulfer that they´ve heard examples of his saxophone playing.

A saxophone was also mentioned in that very first Prince interview that he gave his highschool newspaper. It didn´t explicitly say that he could play it but it mentioned a saxophone present during the interview, among other instruments.

Now I´m not saying that he played saxophone on any of the above mentioned songs but I´m just saying that we can´t be too sure that he did not play saxophone.


Yes. I think he said he tried it, maybe in high school or early on, and didn't like it that much. It's somewhere here in a thread. He could probabably play a sax better than any of us. Unless we have some saxophonists on this thread.

[Edited 2/11/19 15:46pm]

life, it ain't real funky unless it's got that pop.
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Reply #21 posted 02/11/19 9:37pm

Goddess4Real

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jaawwnn said:

It was his sound. He wanted, he NEEDED, to stand out. And it worked.

yeahthat

Keep Calm & Listen To Prince
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Reply #22 posted 02/12/19 1:07am

databank

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KoolEaze said:

PeteSilas said:

hell no, that was a synth, prince couldn't play no horns and he didn't play no meat pipe so no wind instruments whatsoever.

It´s been well established that Prince could indeed play saxophone, just not well enough to really say he could play the sax. It´s been mentioned by both Eric Leeds and Candy Dulfer that they´ve heard examples of his saxophone playing.

A saxophone was also mentioned in that very first Prince interview that he gave his highschool newspaper. It didn´t explicitly say that he could play it but it mentioned a saxophone present during the interview, among other instruments.

Now I´m not saying that he played saxophone on any of the above mentioned songs but I´m just saying that we can´t be too sure that he did not play saxophone.

In other interviews Eric also said Prince couldn't play the sax so IDK. This debate will never be settled I fear.

But putting aside whether he could play a horn or not (I have no clear opinion on this, and IDK for sure what I hear on G-Spot), I'm positive about no horns in I Feel For You unless someone can point me to the exact part where they hear horns.

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Reply #23 posted 02/12/19 2:37am

milesb

databank said:

milesb said:

There's a horn on I Feel For You, I think. Possibly even played by Prince... 1979

Really? eek When in the song do you hear a horn?

2:12

Could be a synth imitating a horn, but pretty good imitation if it is

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Reply #24 posted 02/12/19 4:45am

databank

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milesb said:

databank said:

milesb said: Really? eek When in the song do you hear a horn?

2:12

Could be a synth imitating a horn, but pretty good imitation if it is

eek eek eek eek eek eek

The solo? It's a synth, a horn-sounding synth I'll give you that, but not at all a "good" imitation of a horn. I don't want to sound rude or anything, but it beats me how anyone could even consider the possibility of it being a real horn. eek

I'm pretty sure some people here can even tell you exactly which keyboard produced this sound. Sounds like an Oberheim to me but I'm not expert at all so I'll leave that to the musicians here wink

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Reply #25 posted 02/12/19 5:53am

violetcrush

databank said:

milesb said:

2:12

Could be a synth imitating a horn, but pretty good imitation if it is

eek eek eek eek eek eek

The solo? It's a synth, a horn-sounding synth I'll give you that, but not at all a "good" imitation of a horn. I don't want to sound rude or anything, but it beats me how anyone could even consider the possibility of it being a real horn. eek

I'm pretty sure some people here can even tell you exactly which keyboard produced this sound. Sounds like an Oberheim to me but I'm not expert at all so I'll leave that to the musicians here wink

They just need to listen to some of Eric Leed's solos - then they'll hear/know the difference!! Fink had all of those horn sounds programmed in, right? During the 8/83 show at 1st Avenue when they're performing, I think it was, DMSR - Prince shouts, "gimme some horns!" and you hear the synth start to go. Prince also usually acknowledeged both Eddie M and Eric either before or after their horn solos by calling out their names as early as the PR tour. "Ladies and gentleman, Mr Eric Leeds...." Or, during the '86 Detroit Parade show on Anotherloverholeinyouhead, "Atlanta Bliss...Eric Leeds!" and they started playing.

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Reply #26 posted 02/12/19 7:17am

udo

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billymeade said:

Part of the MPLS sound was synths in place of horns, no?

.

yeahthat

Pills and thrills and daffodils will kill
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Reply #27 posted 02/12/19 7:20am

violetcrush

udo said:

billymeade said:

Part of the MPLS sound was synths in place of horns, no?

.

yeahthat

Or, in the beginning they just didn't want to incorporate live horns. If that statement above is true then why did Prince utilize horn players in both recordings and live shows from 1984 on??

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Reply #28 posted 02/12/19 7:23am

rdhull

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luvsexy4all said:

Why did Prince not include horns on any previous tours?

How can you even say youre fan asking this question.? Are you trolling?

sitting like a princess perched in her electric chair
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Reply #29 posted 02/12/19 1:57pm

PeteSilas

interesting thing is, once he did have a horn section, the revolution only fell apart a little more, wendy called that an r and b review. The moves to more traditonal black music and even as matt fink said, prince wanted to "hang out with his black buddies" seemed a major component in the frictions in the band.

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