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Thread started 04/24/19 8:43pm

lurker316

lip synching

I see there are some old threads on this issue, but they appear to be locked or something (there's no reply button). So forgive me for starting another thread.

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I had no idea Prince had every lip synched until I recently stumbled across his performing Billy Jack Bitch on the 1995 American Music Awards. He didn't even bother holding a mic and pretend to be singing for real.
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After I found some of the older threads I learned of other instances of him doing this in the mid-90s.

.

I'm in disbelief and feeling let down by this. Didn't he once criticize Madonna for lip syncing? Does this make him a hypocrite?

.

I get that there are technical considerations in these venues, but Prince always stuck me as the type to not let technical limitations stop him. He seems like the perfectionist who would tell the engineers to find a way to make it work.

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My interest in Prince had waned during the mid-90s and I wasn't paying as close attention, which is how I missed all that stuff... Though, now that I think back I always did suspect he lips synched the the parts of the SOTT film that we reshot in PP. There's a clear shot in It's Gonna Be A Beautiful Night where he holds the mic away from his mouth (points it at the audience) but you can still hear him singing. And his vocals in If I Was Your Girlfriend sound enhanced.

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Reply #1 posted 04/24/19 9:09pm

rdhull

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lurker316 said:

I'm in disbelief and feeling let down by this.

lol

lol it aint the estates fault you all devoured bootlegs and heard everything
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Reply #2 posted 04/24/19 11:24pm

TrivialPursuit

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rdhull said:

lurker316 said:

I'm in disbelief and feeling let down by this.

lol


^^^ My first reaction, too.

BUT - lipsyncing happens. It's part of the game. Every band on American Bandstand Solid Gold, and Soul Train lip synced to their record (David Bowie did a famously horrible job). He even did in the 90s at the World Music Awards (I think) for "The Most Beautiful Girl In The World", for "Little Red Corvette" on Solid Gold, and even on his first Bandstand appearance where he froze up in his gold pants. I mean, did everyone think the band could magically fade the song exactly like the record? C'mon, y'all.

It's not his fault. Often times, it's just the limitations of the show. Not every show had the resources or means to accomodate live performances (ergo all the unplugged instruments yet we magically hear sound). Prince was limited by that because he had no control over it. He can't make Bandstand or whatever upgrade their technology to be able to accomodate his band. It doesn't make him a hypocrite - it makes him a professional because when he's called and he commits, he shows up and does the job they ask him to do as a performer and singer.

And that 1995 show was a full on medley of lip syncing. I'm not sure why he did that since the other acts were live, but it could have been because it was the Purple Medley and meant to be a sort of retrospect of old and new, death and rebirth.

As far as SOTT, they lipsynced to a live performance from the tour, but the vast majority of it was refilmed at Paisley Park. There are hours of outtakes from the filming. Take after take of "Housequake" from every dang angle, clearly lipsyncing. Again, it happens.

Even concert DVDs are often a couple of different performances spliced together, not just one night straight through the show. Overdubs are added, vocals enhanced; we heard about KISS doing that on their first live album, having denied it for years. When Madonna put out Truth or Dare, many of the live shots were overdubbed with another performance for some reason. She still sang it, just someone else.

Mariah Carey and Christina Aguilera are lipsyncing during their runs and other parts. Mariah uses vocal performances from the 90s, when her voice was still good, and the band plays along to the track. So it's a "live" vocal - just from 20 years ago. Xtina does a mix of both as well, using runs from 20 years ago because she can't hit all those notes consistently anymore. Both woman are older and voices change. So they have enhancements. Even KISS (mainly Paul Stanley) was lip syncing early on in their current tour. They were found out and endless examples were put on YouTube. He started singing live, but parts of the show are still older vocals. He's screaming or talking and his mouth is nowhere near the mic. I got into a fight with Skid Row's Sebastian Bach about it on Twitter. He chooses to believe the narrative. I choose to believe that singers just do what they have to do.

However, I don't know that Prince really lipsynced on tours in an extended way for consistent periods. TV shows etc? Yes. On tours - not to my knowledge.

This experience will cover courtship, sex, commitment, fetishes, loneliness, vindication, love, and hate.
http://bit.ly/1D3FG2U
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Reply #3 posted 04/25/19 2:44am

antonb

Your kidding right? Every artist will have lip synced at one point. Not particularly because they wanted too, but mainly due to the circumstances at the time. Watch old episodes of top of the pops for example. Pretty much all the performances were lip synced. Mainly to make it easier for the show makers. Not really the artists doing.as for Prince. He hardly ever did it. Certainly not during live tours which is the main thing
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Reply #4 posted 04/25/19 5:10am

lurker316

antonb said:

Your kidding right? Every artist will have lip synced at one point. Not particularly because they wanted too, but mainly due to the circumstances at the time. Watch old episodes of top of the pops for example. Pretty much all the performances were lip synced. Mainly to make it easier for the show makers. Not really the artists doing.as for Prince. He hardly ever did it. Certainly not during live tours which is the main thing

.

Yes, I know that every artists lip synchs *at some point*. I was well aware of Pricne doing that early in his career (Bandstand, Solid Gold). And of course he lip synchs music videos.
.
But I thought after Prince became a superstar, and got the power that comes with it, he would have demanded that his shows be as authentic as possible. Particularly after he criticized other people for lip synch.

.

Oh, and I made a mistake in my orginal post. The song from the SOTT film that I thought had significantly enhanced voice was Hot Thing (not IIWYG).

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Reply #5 posted 04/25/19 5:35am

jaawwnn

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lurker316 said:

antonb said:

Your kidding right? Every artist will have lip synced at one point. Not particularly because they wanted too, but mainly due to the circumstances at the time. Watch old episodes of top of the pops for example. Pretty much all the performances were lip synced. Mainly to make it easier for the show makers. Not really the artists doing.as for Prince. He hardly ever did it. Certainly not during live tours which is the main thing

.

Yes, I know that every artists lip synchs *at some point*. I was well aware of Pricne doing that early in his career (Bandstand, Solid Gold). And of course he lip synchs music videos.
.
But I thought after Prince became a superstar, and got the power that comes with it, he would have demanded that his shows be as authentic as possible. Particularly after he criticized other people for lip synch.

.

Oh, and I made a mistake in my orginal post. The song from the SOTT film that I thought had significantly enhanced voice was Hot Thing (not IIWYG).

Well I mean, you thought wrong didn't you?

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Reply #6 posted 04/25/19 6:12am

antonb

WeLl he did for the most part. Especially in the 2000s onwards. Do you listen to any bootlegs of his live shows? Prince playing intruments, singing and dancing, sometimes at the same time, is the best I have seen at doing it. Yes all live! So your complaint about lip syncing with prince of all people is pretty daft. They are hundreds of shows on bootleg of Prince singing live and all the rest of it. Don't be disappointed
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Reply #7 posted 04/25/19 7:17am

lurker316

antonb said:

WeLl he did for the most part. Especially in the 2000s onwards. Do you listen to any bootlegs of his live shows? Prince playing intruments, singing and dancing, sometimes at the same time, is the best I have seen at doing it. Yes all live! So your complaint about lip syncing with prince of all people is pretty daft. They are hundreds of shows on bootleg of Prince singing live and all the rest of it. Don't be disappointed

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Yes, I realize the examples of lip synching we're talking about are the exception, not the rule. I know that 99% of the time he was singing live. But that doesn't mean I can't be disappointed in or complain about the 1% of the time he cheated.

.

If remember correctly (and admittedly, I may not) when he criticized Madonna for lip synching her defense was that it's diffciult to dance and sing at the same time. I was very proud of the fact that Prince could not only sing and dance at the same time, but play guitar too!

.

This is an aspect of his greatness that, I thought, set him apart from other pop stars. Seeing it diminished, even if only slightly, is sad.

.

[Edited 4/25/19 9:26am]

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Reply #8 posted 04/25/19 7:56am

deebee

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I seem to recall an interview around the time (possibly about the WMA performance in 1994) in which he was complaining that the event organisers were insisting upon this. I wonder if not even having a mic was a bit of a way of acknowledging it to the audience and refusing to pretend otherwise. Seems fair enough.

"Not everything that is faced can be changed; but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin
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Reply #9 posted 04/25/19 9:28am

lurker316

deebee said:

I seem to recall an interview around the time (possibly about the WMA performance in 1994) in which he was complaining that the event organisers were insisting upon this. I wonder if not even having a mic was a bit of a way of acknowledging it to the audience and refusing to pretend otherwise. Seems fair enough.

.

That crossed my mind as well... Maybe he refused the mic because he figured if we was going to lip synch he shouldn't try to trick people into thinking he live (that would be dishonest).

.

It's a shame because otherwise I really like that performance.

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Reply #10 posted 04/25/19 11:13am

TrivialPursuit

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lurker316 said:

Yes, I know that every artists lip synchs *at some point*. I was well aware of Pricne doing that early in his career (Bandstand, Solid Gold). And of course he lip synchs music videos.
.
But I thought after Prince became a superstar, and got the power that comes with it, he would have demanded that his shows be as authentic as possible. Particularly after he criticized other people for lip synch.

.

Oh, and I made a mistake in my orginal post. The song from the SOTT film that I thought had significantly enhanced voice was Hot Thing (not IIWYG).


Three notes:

1) he was a superstar, but again - he can't dictate to a production company or whoever to setup so they can play live. He can choose to not do the show, but sometimes ya just gotta get out there and do your thing for the exposure. This is business. Besides, you don't wanna disappoint them... wait, got off track. LOL

2) He probably criticized people who depended on lipsyncing to put on full concerts, like Britney Spears or whoever. Yeah, Madonna lipsyncs here and there (I've yet to hear her sing "Vogue" live), but she does sing plenty live in her shows as well. Britney is damn near doing her shows with a hairbrush in her bedroom. hahaha

3) All of SOTT was a live performance - in audio. Whether it was the original Stockholm (?) footage or the lipsyncing at Paisley Park, they were still doing it to a real SOTT concert (I forget the audio that they used, but it could have been a melange of different shows - sounds doubtful though).

This experience will cover courtship, sex, commitment, fetishes, loneliness, vindication, love, and hate.
http://bit.ly/1D3FG2U
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Reply #11 posted 04/25/19 12:12pm

khelm9

TrivialPursuit said:

lurker316 said:

Yes, I know that every artists lip synchs *at some point*. I was well aware of Pricne doing that early in his career (Bandstand, Solid Gold). And of course he lip synchs music videos.
.
But I thought after Prince became a superstar, and got the power that comes with it, he would have demanded that his shows be as authentic as possible. Particularly after he criticized other people for lip synch.

.

Oh, and I made a mistake in my orginal post. The song from the SOTT film that I thought had significantly enhanced voice was Hot Thing (not IIWYG).


Three notes:

1) he was a superstar, but again - he can't dictate to a production company or whoever to setup so they can play live. He can choose to not do the show, but sometimes ya just gotta get out there and do your thing for the exposure. This is business. Besides, you don't wanna disappoint them... wait, got off track. LOL

2) He probably criticized people who depended on lipsyncing to put on full concerts, like Britney Spears or whoever. Yeah, Madonna lipsyncs here and there (I've yet to hear her sing "Vogue" live), but she does sing plenty live in her shows as well. Britney is damn near doing her shows with a hairbrush in her bedroom. hahaha

3) All of SOTT was a live performance - in audio. Whether it was the original Stockholm (?) footage or the lipsyncing at Paisley Park, they were still doing it to a real SOTT concert (I forget the audio that they used, but it could have been a melange of different shows - sounds doubtful though).

All of SOTT was live EXCEPT OF COURSE "U Got The Look" which was a music video shoot at PP.

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Reply #12 posted 04/25/19 1:37pm

Genesia

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lurker316 said:

antonb said:

WeLl he did for the most part. Especially in the 2000s onwards. Do you listen to any bootlegs of his live shows? Prince playing intruments, singing and dancing, sometimes at the same time, is the best I have seen at doing it. Yes all live! So your complaint about lip syncing with prince of all people is pretty daft. They are hundreds of shows on bootleg of Prince singing live and all the rest of it. Don't be disappointed

.

Yes, I realize the examples of lip synching we're talking about are the exception, not the rule. I know that 99% of the time he was singing live. But that doesn't mean I can't be disappointed in or complain about the 1% of the time he cheated.

.

If remember correctly (and admittedly, I may not) when he criticized Madonna for lip synching her defense was that it's diffciult to dance and sing at the same time. I was very proud of the fact that Prince could not only sing and dance at the same time, but play guitar too!

.

This is an aspect of his greatness that, I thought, set him apart from other pop stars. Seeing it diminished, even if only slightly, is sad.

.


Do you feel as bad about him cheating in his romantic relationships? Because he did that a lot.

That is to say, you sound like a jealous girlfriend.


We don’t mourn artists because we knew them. We mourn them because they helped us know ourselves.
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Reply #13 posted 04/25/19 2:09pm

antonb

So for the small percentage of lip syncing he did compared to some brilliant live performances and hundreds of live shows and after shows. Your going to hold that against him? Your argument is dumb. Prince did a lot worse things than that that you should be disappointed about! Prince wasn't a bad man, but he had his moments.
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Reply #14 posted 04/25/19 2:19pm

WhisperingDand
elions

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lurker316 said:

antonb said:

WeLl he did for the most part. Especially in the 2000s onwards. Do you listen to any bootlegs of his live shows? Prince playing intruments, singing and dancing, sometimes at the same time, is the best I have seen at doing it. Yes all live! So your complaint about lip syncing with prince of all people is pretty daft. They are hundreds of shows on bootleg of Prince singing live and all the rest of it. Don't be disappointed

.

Yes, I realize the examples of lip synching we're talking about are the exception, not the rule. I know that 99% of the time he was singing live. But that doesn't mean I can't be disappointed in or complain about the 1% of the time he cheated.

.

If remember correctly (and admittedly, I may not) when he criticized Madonna for lip synching her defense was that it's diffciult to dance and sing at the same time. I was very proud of the fact that Prince could not only sing and dance at the same time, but play guitar too!

.

This is an aspect of his greatness that, I thought, set him apart from other pop stars. Seeing it diminished, even if only slightly, is sad.

.

[Edited 4/25/19 9:26am]

I feel like any study of Prince would show a pretty big disparity between his opinions / actions at all phases of his life and career. I'd list examples but this would turn into a massive text block pretty quickly... Does the "real music by real musicians" mantra he used to espouse elicit the same reaction when you listen to his records rife with drum machines and synths?

.

But I do feel like Org downplays the "lip sync era" a bit. I remember as a teen I reacted similarly to you, actually. I was in disbelief, combing through all the vids. It's all like 94-96 Gold Experience era, right? Practically every televised appearance, places he'd play live before & since, totally wasn't some American Bandstand or Soul Train budget situation like people are rationalizing.... maybe I'm inflating the number in my memories but sure, I can relate to your perspective slightly. Maybe it was a phase, I remember never seeing it happen again after like '96.

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Reply #15 posted 04/25/19 3:05pm

rdhull

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WhisperingDandelions said:

lurker316 said:

.

Yes, I realize the examples of lip synching we're talking about are the exception, not the rule. I know that 99% of the time he was singing live. But that doesn't mean I can't be disappointed in or complain about the 1% of the time he cheated.

.

If remember correctly (and admittedly, I may not) when he criticized Madonna for lip synching her defense was that it's diffciult to dance and sing at the same time. I was very proud of the fact that Prince could not only sing and dance at the same time, but play guitar too!

.

This is an aspect of his greatness that, I thought, set him apart from other pop stars. Seeing it diminished, even if only slightly, is sad.

.

[Edited 4/25/19 9:26am]

I feel like any study of Prince would show a pretty big disparity between his opinions / actions at all phases of his life and career. I'd list examples but this would turn into a massive text block pretty quickly... Does the "real music by real musicians" mantra he used to espouse elicit the same reaction when you listen to his records rife with drum machines and synths?

.

But I do feel like Org downplays the "lip sync era" a bit. I remember as a teen I reacted similarly to you, actually. I was in disbelief, combing through all the vids. It's all like 94-96 Gold Experience era, right? Practically every televised appearance, places he'd play live before & since, totally wasn't some American Bandstand or Soul Train budget situation like people are rationalizing.... maybe I'm inflating the number in my memories but sure, I can relate to your perspective slightly. Maybe it was a phase, I remember never seeing it happen again after like '96.

Look. He earned the right to lypsych here and there just for the IWD4U/BIAS encores of yore alone.

lol it aint the estates fault you all devoured bootlegs and heard everything
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Reply #16 posted 04/25/19 3:56pm

kingricefan

The producers of the show would not let him sing live for this performance (for whatever reason they thought was just) and Prince was very angry about it. He even chewed gum during the performance as a way to say 'F*ck you' to them. I don't know if anyone else hears it at the end of the performance but I swear I can hear in the scream (at this point Prince has stopped lipsyncing so it's from the original source) 'Take that all you sly motherf*ckers!' Does anyone else hear this?

deebee said:

I seem to recall an interview around the time (possibly about the WMA performance in 1994) in which he was complaining that the event organisers were insisting upon this. I wonder if not even having a mic was a bit of a way of acknowledging it to the audience and refusing to pretend otherwise. Seems fair enough.

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Reply #17 posted 04/25/19 4:34pm

Marrk

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Genesia said:

lurker316 said:

.

Yes, I realize the examples of lip synching we're talking about are the exception, not the rule. I know that 99% of the time he was singing live. But that doesn't mean I can't be disappointed in or complain about the 1% of the time he cheated.

.

If remember correctly (and admittedly, I may not) when he criticized Madonna for lip synching her defense was that it's diffciult to dance and sing at the same time. I was very proud of the fact that Prince could not only sing and dance at the same time, but play guitar too!

.

This is an aspect of his greatness that, I thought, set him apart from other pop stars. Seeing it diminished, even if only slightly, is sad.

.


Do you feel as bad about him cheating in his romantic relationships? Because he did that a lot.



I don't think lip synching occasionally flashed before his eyes as he passed, Past relationships might well have.

Yeah, we'll, we'll try to imagine what silence looks like.
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Reply #18 posted 04/25/19 5:47pm

lurker316

Genesia said:

lurker316 said:

.

Yes, I realize the examples of lip synching we're talking about are the exception, not the rule. I know that 99% of the time he was singing live. But that doesn't mean I can't be disappointed in or complain about the 1% of the time he cheated.

.

If remember correctly (and admittedly, I may not) when he criticized Madonna for lip synching her defense was that it's diffciult to dance and sing at the same time. I was very proud of the fact that Prince could not only sing and dance at the same time, but play guitar too!

.

This is an aspect of his greatness that, I thought, set him apart from other pop stars. Seeing it diminished, even if only slightly, is sad.

.


Do you feel as bad about him cheating in his romantic relationships? Because he did that a lot.

That is to say, you sound like a jealous girlfriend.


.

It's all about expectations.

.

I didn't hold him on a pedistal or idolize him as a romatic role model. I knew he was a womanizer so I was never suprised or let down by his wondering eye.

.

In contrast, I did hold him on a pedisal and idolize him as a live performer. So I was surprised and let down by his lip synching.

.

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Reply #19 posted 04/25/19 5:56pm

lurker316

A related question...

.

Does he lip synch at all in Rave Un2 the Year 2000? I'm thinking of buying the new Ultimate Rave package and want to be forewarned if I will be disappointed by the video.

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Reply #20 posted 04/25/19 6:14pm

Marrk

avatar

lurker316 said:

A related question...

.

Does he lip synch at all in Rave Un2 the Year 2000? I'm thinking of buying the new Ultimate Rave package and want to be forewarned if I will be disappointed by the video.

No he doesn't. You are safe, Have you heard of Spontaneous Human Combustion? Google it. That should worry you more.

Yeah, we'll, we'll try to imagine what silence looks like.
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Reply #21 posted 04/26/19 3:04pm

herb4

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I hated when he would lip synch. That God it didn't happen all that often.

And, yeah "lurker316", for some reason threads lock really fast on this board. I think it's set to where if there are no replies for like 3-5 days or something than they automatically shut down which, to me, is too short a window for such a relatively untrafficked board but I suppose it's a storage/server compromise.

Then Bart comes in and yells at people for not posting in the appropriate thread.

It's kind of weird.

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Reply #22 posted 04/26/19 4:55pm

stillwaiting

lurker316 said:

I see there are some old threads on this issue, but they appear to be locked or something (there's no reply button). So forgive me for starting another thread.

.

I had no idea Prince had every lip synched until I recently stumbled across his performing Billy Jack Bitch on the 1995 American Music Awards. He didn't even bother holding a mic and pretend to be singing for real.
.
After I found some of the older threads I learned of other instances of him doing this in the mid-90s.

.

I'm in disbelief and feeling let down by this. Didn't he once criticize Madonna for lip syncing? Does this make him a hypocrite?

.

I get that there are technical considerations in these venues, but Prince always stuck me as the type to not let technical limitations stop him. He seems like the perfectionist who would tell the engineers to find a way to make it work.

.

My interest in Prince had waned during the mid-90s and I wasn't paying as close attention, which is how I missed all that stuff... Though, now that I think back I always did suspect he lips synched the the parts of the SOTT film that we reshot in PP. There's a clear shot in It's Gonna Be A Beautiful Night where he holds the mic away from his mouth (points it at the audience) but you can still hear him singing. And his vocals in If I Was Your Girlfriend sound enhanced.

Perfectionist? This is the man who hired Tony M, and had the Game Boyz wearing Star Trek Next Generation Uniforms onstage. And in the last few years, he basically sung to backing tapes of medleys of songs in the so-called "Sampler Set." Best Songwriter and Musician of all time? Probably, and for sure in my opinion. Perfectionist? No, he had multiple flaws, and hypocrisy was a common theme if you paid attention to his career. "Crystal Ball only available through 1-800 NEW FUNK or the internet." (Many of us, including me got it 9 months after buying it in a store.)

Perfectionist? See Jughead, Purple & Gold, and The Wedding Feast

still, When Doves Cry, Anna Stesia, and the original Old Friends 4 Sale are examples of perfection no other artist can match.

"If U ever lose some1 dear 2 U, Never say the words they're gone....They'll come back."
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Reply #23 posted 04/26/19 4:57pm

stillwaiting

herb4 said:

I hated when he would lip synch. That God it didn't happen all that often.

And, yeah "lurker316", for some reason threads lock really fast on this board. I think it's set to where if there are no replies for like 3-5 days or something than they automatically shut down which, to me, is too short a window for such a relatively untrafficked board but I suppose it's a storage/server compromise.

Then Bart comes in and yells at people for not posting in the appropriate thread.

It's kind of weird.

I miss the days when I would purposely make a mistake so Bart Van Halen would attack me. I don't think he caught on to what I was doing until I started posting about doing it.

"If U ever lose some1 dear 2 U, Never say the words they're gone....They'll come back."
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